tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post7450147916835304641..comments2023-09-16T16:09:55.109-04:00Comments on TheoPerspectives: God's Love and Limits: The Kings of the Earth in HeavenJames Goetzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02412501436355228925noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-4235518610431386282013-01-30T21:54:41.576-05:002013-01-30T21:54:41.576-05:00Hi Cindy,
Thank you for stopping by.
Revelation ...Hi Cindy,<br /><br />Thank you for stopping by.<br /><br />Revelation ultimately teaches about the conversion of the nations while the kings are the leaders of the nations. Look again at Revelation 21:24 NRSV:<br /><br />"The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it."<br /><br />The nations enter the New Jerusalem.<br /><br />Also, Robin Parry in THE EVANGELICAL UNIVERSALIST made a good case for universalism in Revelations 15:4:<br /><br />"All nations will come and worship before you, for your judgements have been revealed."<br /><br />Blessings,<br />JimJames Goetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02412501436355228925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-12877893778521628242013-01-30T16:22:50.457-05:002013-01-30T16:22:50.457-05:00Excellent post, James. This will be a great help t...Excellent post, James. This will be a great help to me in thinking through this whole "kings of the earth" topic. <br /><br />I was wondering, in addition to "kings" being leaders of all sorts of titles, whether "kings of the earth" might not refer more generally to the population. We all, in our lost state, attempt to rule our own lives. Aren't we, in doing this, setting ourselves up as "kings of the earth," even if only over our own little spheres of influence?<br /><br />Thanks again. I'm really glad I hopped over here and read this!<br /><br />Blessings, Cindy<br /><br />trytempa<br /><br />Cindy Skillman<br /><br />http://www.journeyintotheson.com/Cindy Skillmanhttp://www.journeyintotheson.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-68395418856409295462010-02-14T00:27:34.518-05:002010-02-14T00:27:34.518-05:00Continued from last comment.
Most occurrences of ...<i>Continued from last comment.</i><br /><br />Most occurrences of "the kings of the earth" in Revelation occur in Revelation 17-19. I view these chapters in the original context while I see them from the perspective of both idealism and futurism. And according to futurism, these kings are political leaders in the last generation before the return of the Lord. And I suppose few of them would have an actual title called "king". And I suppose that they are among the unrepentant followers of the whore and beast according Revelation 16:9. And some of them may be among the ten horns of the beast. And the kings of the earth in heaven from verse 21:24 represent political leaders from all eras.<br /><br />A primary teaching in Revelation focuses on the conversion of the kings of the earth and the nations, which fulfills Messianic Prophecy. And I'm unsure of the smoothest way to state this, but the most natural flow of interpretation about the kings of the earth is that at least some of the kings of the earth in Revelation 17-19 appear in verse 21:24. And I would need to see compelling evidence to convince me that none of the kings of the earth in chapter 19 appear in 21:24 while such a claim appears as forced exegesis.<br /><br />Current refutation of my interpretation challenges the development of my interpretation, which I always appreciate, while I'm unconvinced by the refutation. I hope for more refutation of my interpretation so I may pray and analyze them.<br /><br />Blessings,<br /><br />JimJames Goetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02412501436355228925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-4980408235809303012010-02-14T00:25:43.250-05:002010-02-14T00:25:43.250-05:00Thank you, Dale. I always appreciate your input.
...Thank you, Dale. I always appreciate your input.<br /><br />Concerning the minor point, I searched the NRSV for "the kings of the earth" while I would also have included Matthew 17:25 if I searched "kings of the earth" without "the". And I see that the NASB includes "the" while the NRSV and NIV exclude "the", perhaps to make the translation more user friendly.<br /><br />Anyway, the main issue at hand is whether or whether not the respective verses in Revelation teach that some lost humans will accept salvation after dying lost, postmortem conversion, which has implications about the possibility of universalism. And I see that I didn't do enough in my conclusion to drive home that point. And after I get enough feedback, I hope to include an updated conclusion for this post. For now, I'll bring up the ideas in the comments.<br /><br />We both pointed out that the Old Testament refers to the kings of the earth in drastically different ways such as disobeying God and obeying God. And you note that Revelation 21:24 echoes the language of Isaiah 60 while Isaiah 19 distinguished between some nations rebelling and suffering divine wrath while others repent and honor the Lord. And you say, "An attempt to squeeze universalism out of this relies on forced exegesis that ignores factors like these." And you say that I have an overly literal interpretation of a figurative book. And you ask a challenging question: "Why do the "kings of the earth" have to be exactly the same people in each occurrence, rather than the rebellious wicked in passages talking about judgment, and the repentant righteous when talking about kings mentioned in places like Isaiah 60:1ff and Revelation 21:24f?"<br /><br />First, I'm unclear about your point on Isaiah 19. This chapter predicts great judgment against Egypt followed by great revival among Egyptians, Israelites, and Assyrians. This appears to go along with my belief in restoration following judgment, including the Assyrians. Perhaps Isaiah 19 was partially or typologically fulfilled during the Ancient and Medieval Church before the rise of Islam while I also believe that this chapter suggests an end-time revival in the respective lands. And this goes along with Isaiah 2 prophesying how nations will stream to the Lord during the Messianic Age. Anyway, my article doesn't come close to ignoring that some nations face divine wrath. For example, I wrote, "John the Revelator juxtaposes the kings of the earth suffering judicial wrath and accepting salvation." I never doubt divine wrath as taught by, for example, Isaiah 45, which teaches that "every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear" to the Lord while those who raged against him will come to him and be put to shame. My article supports divine wrath. However, how long must divine wrath last? For example, I see John the Revelator implies that divine wrath doesn't have to last literally forever. <br /><br />I'll try to do a better job at explaining why the kings of the earth in Revelation 21:24 include at least some of the kings of the earth in Revelation 17-19. And if my interpretation is correct, then John the Revelator taught about postmortem conversions, along with many others in the Early Church.<br /><br />Let's review the eight occurrences of "the kings of the earth" in Revelation in regards to their obedience and disobedience to God. First, verse 1:5, John the Revelator passes no moral judgment on the kings of the earth while he declares that Jesus rules them. Second, verse 6:15, they evidently disobey God and try to hide from the wrath of God. Third to seventh, verses 17:2, 8; 18:3, 9; 19:19, they follow the whore and the beast while disobeying God. Finally, verse 21:24, they obey God in heaven.<br /><br /><i>Continued in next comment because of blog comment limit of 4,096 characters.</i>James Goetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02412501436355228925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-52184443953846518152010-02-11T18:56:42.139-05:002010-02-11T18:56:42.139-05:00Minor note: "kings of the earth" is used...Minor note: "kings of the earth" is used 10, not 9 times (Matt 17:25; Acts 4:26; Rev 1:5; 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24).<br /><br />Rev 21:24 is clearly echoing the language and ideas of Isaiah 60. And note that Isaiah 19 distinguishes between some from the nations rebelling and suffering divine wrath, and some repenting and honoring the LORD.<br /><br />An attempt to squeeze universalism out of this relies on forced exegesis that ignores factors like these.<br /><br />And I see no reason to subject this most figurative of books to an overly literal interpretation. Why do the "kings of the earth" have to be exactly the same people in each occurrence, rather than the rebellious wicked in passages talking about judgment, and the repentant righteous when talking about kings mentioned in places like Isaiah 60:1ff and Revelation 21:24f?<br /><br />The Greek phrase <i>basileis tes ges</i> occurs throughout the LXX, sometimes referring to the wicked rebellious nations (e.g., Josh 12:1; Ps 2:2; 75[76]:13[12]; Ezek 27:33; 1 Esdr 8:74[77]). Other times it's more positive, referring so kings who acknowledge divine wisdom (1 Kgs 5:14[4:34]; 10:23f; 2 Chr 9:23) or even worshiping God (Pss 101:16; 137:4; 148:11).Dale A. Brueggemannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05407870666224089547noreply@blogger.com