tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post3975783662068466535..comments2023-09-16T16:09:55.109-04:00Comments on TheoPerspectives: God's Love and Limits: The Restoration of the City or Locality Church and Apostolic LeadershipJames Goetzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02412501436355228925noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-73646130705755440062008-11-11T12:45:00.000-05:002008-11-11T12:45:00.000-05:00Great work.Great work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-78170037824124412162008-06-16T00:02:00.000-04:002008-06-16T00:02:00.000-04:00I've posted link #8 in this chain blog in a post c...I've posted link #8 in this chain blog in a post called "<A HREF="http://assembling.blogspot.com/2008/06/unity-and-church-in-city.html" REL="nofollow">Unity and the Church in a City</A>".<BR/><BR/>-AlanAlan Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07452247058550736803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-73195713159084281582008-06-15T00:07:00.000-04:002008-06-15T00:07:00.000-04:00Jon, here are some comments about your post from N...Jon, here are some comments about your post from November 11, 2002.<BR/><BR/>First of all, the term "Apostolic Succession" implies an unbroken succession of apostolic bishops going back to the New Testament (NT) apostles. And this excludes contemporary apostles apart from apostolic succession. So I'll focus on the idea of apostolic ministry in relationship to city churches.<BR/><BR/>And I'll repeat from my original post that the NT term "bishop" (related to episcopal) describes elders/presbyters. Likewise, distinguishing bishops from presbyters is a post-biblical church tradition. <BR/><BR/>Nonetheless, I hope that my original post and follow up comments explain that the NT teaches about apostolic government continuing past Paul and the apostles who witnessed the ministry of Jesus Christ. For example, NT apostles mentored new apostles.<BR/><BR/>I also commented on Paul Grabill's post, the fifth link in this chain blog, that the NT doesn't teach that city churches raised up resident apostles. The NT apostles typically ministered to multiple cities while the permanent resident leaders of NT city churches were elders/bishops.<BR/><BR/>So where does that leave us with the restoration of city churches and apostolic government? I suppose that the city church movement will eventually reach a point where city churches are more important than denominations. And when this point is reached, denominations as we know them will cease to exist.<BR/><BR/>When denominations as we know them will cease to exist, then I believe that many city churches will clearly recognize the government of apostles. On one hand, I would never push this view to evangelicals who believe that this is wrong while I believe that I should put it out on the table.<BR/><BR/>One key criteria for an apostle is that the apostle ministers to church/ministry leaders in multiple cities. This type of ministry can include ministerial fellowship/denominational officials. And some of these officials could primarily be a pastor of a church while they also minister to church/ministry leaders in other cities.<BR/><BR/>If my above criteria is accurate, then any given city or locality could have one or more resident pastor who is also an apostle while some cities could have no resident apostles. And I believe that the Early Church made a mistake when it eventually appointed one primary apostolic bishop per city church or regional church. The Bible didn't mandate that model while that model didn't work.<BR/><BR/>Elders should be the resident governors of city churches while some of those elders may be apostles. And the ministry of apostolic councils should include the training of ministers, the management of missions, help with the succession of church/ministry leaders, and the correction or discipline of wayward leaders.James Goetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02412501436355228925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-31793744603414575042008-06-13T23:58:00.000-04:002008-06-13T23:58:00.000-04:00James, here's an old post of mine on apostolic suc...James, here's an <A HREF="http://aminor.blogspot.com/2002/11/thoughts-on-apostolic-succession.html" REL="nofollow"><I>old</I> post of mine on apostolic succession and mission</A>:<BR/><BR/>http://aminor.blogspot.com/2002/11/thoughts-on-apostolic-succession.html<BR/><BR/>I'd love to hear any thoughts you might have in response.jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01655013690499442446noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-12911726824837554912008-06-13T17:00:00.000-04:002008-06-13T17:00:00.000-04:00Thanks, Alan. I see more about your point of view ...Thanks, Alan. I see more about your point of view while I struggle with some of your premises.<BR/><BR/>I see the church in Corinth as an example of a city church helped by the ministry of apostles. Here are some examples.<BR/>1) Paul began his letters by mentioning his office of apostle<BR/>2) Paul rebuked the Corinthian church perhaps more than any other city church<BR/>3) I Corinthians 4:1-13 appeals to the importance of apostleship<BR/>4) I Corinthians 9:1-18 focuses of the rights of an apostles<BR/>5) I Corinthians 12 is complex in that it teaches that everybody in the body of Christ is important while 1 Corinthians 12:28 lists a first, second, and third hierarchy<BR/>6) II Corinthians mentions the leader Titus nine times <BR/>7) II Corinthians 11-12 spends a lot of time justifying genuine apostolic ministry<BR/><BR/>And concerning Ephesians, Paul wrote Ephesians with a purpose of intracity circulation. (Of course, God intended worldwide circulation for all New Testament letters.) And Ephesians 2:20 describes apostles and prophets as foundations with Jesus as the chief cornerstone.<BR/><BR/>I see Paul referring the Corinthian church to apostolic leadership.James Goetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02412501436355228925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-70289567460971283112008-06-13T08:17:00.000-04:002008-06-13T08:17:00.000-04:00I'd like to write the next post in the city church...I'd like to write the next post in the city church chain, unless someone else is already writing it.<BR/><BR/>-AlanAlan Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07452247058550736803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-55302779745167348042008-06-11T23:06:00.000-04:002008-06-11T23:06:00.000-04:00James,Thanks for the further explanation. Instead ...James,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the further explanation. Instead of answering your question about context, I'd like to step through my explanation of the same passages. Perhaps my explanation will help explain my question.<BR/><BR/>Eph. 4:11 lists four types of gifted individuals as examples. In fact, all gifted individuals are necessary for equipping the church and for the work of service. As in 1 Cor 12, these four giftings are important, but no more important than others. In fact, when we see them as more important, we're missing the fact that what seems less important to us is actually given more honor and made more important by God (1 Cor 12:22-25) especially in developing unity. So, Paul didn't write Eph 4:11 in order to specify the types of gifted leaders necessary, but as examples. If these four types of gifted individuals are more important for equipping the church, it would be interesting to ask Paul (and God, I suppose) why he only explained that to one church, and why he didn't explain that to the Corinthians, who were having a hard time keeping things straight. I would have been easier for Paul to simply tell the Corinthians to follow their leaders.<BR/><BR/>James 5:14 instructs those who are sick to call the elders to pray for them. Instead of a ministry of leadership, this seems (at least to me) to reflect more on the maturity of the elders. Similarly, James 3:1 does say that teachers will have a stricter judgment. But, notice there is no connection in the text between the teachers of 3:1 and the elders of 5:14. (As a side note, Hebrew 6 also says that everyone should be teachers. Perhaps this "strict judgment" is not meant to warn people against teaching, but to be careful what they teach.)<BR/><BR/>Jeremiah 3:15 does say that God will provide shepherds for his people, and I think that pastoring is very important. The identification and work of these shepherds become a little less clear when the teaching about the new covenant and the indwelling Spirit of God is included from Jeremiah 31. Jeremiah 31:34 even says that we will no longer teach one another. <BR/><BR/>I believe that leaders are very important - primarily as examples to the people. We should follow those who closely follow the work of God in their own lives, and this will certainly include unity.<BR/><BR/>My concern, however, is not with leaders. My concern is that even in the passages that you mention, these leaders are not connected specifically with guiding and directing the "city church". As I mentioned previously, when writing to the church that needed help the most - the church in Corinth - Paul did not point to leaders, but he pointed to the responsibility of each believer to follow the Spirit of God and build up the church (which would include unity).<BR/><BR/>In fact, when writing to the church in Corinth, Paul actually downplays the role of himself and others who the believers in Corinth were following. I believe there was a church of Corinth, and it probably had several sub-groups that were also churches, but I don't see Paul instructing these people to look for guidance and direction from either their apostolic or their elder leadership.<BR/><BR/>I hope this better explains where I'm coming from.<BR/><BR/>-AlanAlan Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07452247058550736803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-1867120639153187022008-06-11T22:15:00.000-04:002008-06-11T22:15:00.000-04:00Jon,This is the first time that I heard about Matt...Jon,<BR/><BR/>This is the first time that I heard about Mattera's book, and the first chapter looks good to me.<BR/><BR/>Alan,<BR/><BR/>Paul refers readers (or illiterate hearers) per Ephesians 4:11-13 to be built up by leaders including apostles and pastors while that preparation should bring unity to the saints. And 1 Peter 5:5 refers hearers to the submission of elders. And on a tangent, James 5:14 refers sick hearers to call for the ministry of elders. And Jeremiah 3:15 says that the Lord will give His people shepherds after the Lord's heart.<BR/><BR/>I agree that everybody in the body of Christ needs to do their part for unity regardless of leadership. Yet God's primary model is for godly leaders to lead God's people. And James 3:1 says that teachers have a stricter judgment compared to others. And I believe that one of the reasons that teachers (such as pastors per Ephesians 4:11-13 and overseers per 1 Timothy 3:1-3) get a stricter judgment is that such leaders tend to influence more people in the body of Christ compared to non-leaders.<BR/><BR/>Each believers obedience to God is important, but I felt the need to put together a New Testament view of church leadership while examining the restoration of the city church.<BR/><BR/>Alan, I hope I addressed your question.:)<BR/><BR/>And since your an adjunct professor of Greek who likes to focus on ecclesiology, I'm interested in your view. Do you think that I kept the context of all of the Bible references in my post? I'm not claiming that I put together an exegetical paper, but I want to make sure that I kept to the context of the passages that I referenced.James Goetzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02412501436355228925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-41496260434641199492008-06-11T17:09:00.000-04:002008-06-11T17:09:00.000-04:00James,Thanks for the post! I'm also glad that this...James,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the post! I'm also glad that this chain blog is continuing.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your perspective on city church leadership. I agree that the work of apostles and elders/bishops is very important. There's one question that I can't seem to answer though: If the work of apostles and/or elders/bishops is so important to the unity of the church, why does neither Paul, nor Peter, nor James refer their readers to either apostolic or elder leadership? Instead, it seems that the authors of Scripture tell all of the readers to seek unity. Am I missing something?<BR/><BR/>-AlanAlan Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07452247058550736803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8156253068484769884.post-42091224851803128832008-06-11T13:30:00.000-04:002008-06-11T13:30:00.000-04:00Thanks for this post, James. I was starting to wo...Thanks for this post, James. I was starting to worry that I'd killed the chain!<BR/><BR/>Btw, are you familiar with <A HREF="http://www.rulinginthegates.com/about.htm" REL="nofollow">Joseph Mattera</A>'s book, <I>Ruling in the Gates</I>? I haven't gotten it yet, but it's on my to-read list and I've heard good things.jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01655013690499442446noreply@blogger.com